The Neglected Kit Resurrection Groupbuild

Hunter Cummins
Count me in!!!! Any color modulation?

Urban Gardini
I've never done any colour modulation before. I'm gonna try to do it on this one so it's a bit of experimenting before it's done.

Jan Hazes
Will be following this one. i've got it in my stash. Why did you pause the build on this one Urban?

Urban Gardini
Other builds caught my interest and it just stopped for me. Other than that I can say that I've mostly built planes in 1:72 since this one got put to the side.

Jan Hazes
Fair enough, thought it might have to had do with the kit itself.

Urban Gardini
The kit is fine but I've done some errors that I need to fix.

Urban Gardini
A question for all of you out there that have built this kit or some other Ausf. D Panther! Is there any good resin crew figures out there that fits to the hatches and cupola to the Ausf. D? Should be summer and Heer attire in order to fit my build! Alpine have a lot of figures but moste of those is marketing in an Ausf. A/G commanders cupola so I don't know how well they'll fit in the early cupola.

Kerry COX
Urban, I have looked around for your figures, but no luck though this site may be able to help.
militarymodels.co.nz

Urban Gardini
Thanks mate! I'm gonna look through that site later on when I'm awake and hopefully I'm going to find a suitable figure. But sleep is more important right now. 01:30 right now and tomorrow is a work day...

Kerry COX
No worries. 🙂

Urban Gardini
Planning ahead here. How was the spare tracks delivered to the units or with fresh tanks? Unpainted or in black/dunkelgelb/panzergrau? Many spare tracks was overpainted by the unit when they camouflaged their tanks but how should they look before that?

Hunter Cummins
I would imagine, blackened (like all the tracks were, . With a hint of a flash rust in some areas,

Urban Gardini
Thanks mate! I've got a hunch that it was something like that but I'm not certain.

Hunter Cummins
No problem! But they got pretty rusty, after time, so like a very dark brown base coat, and various rust pigments, (dark red to bright red and even yellow, . And make each link different with the rust tones too! 🙂

Jan Hazes
I use vallejo camo black brown as a base for tracks. Looks a bit rusty but not too.

Urban Gardini
Thanks mate!

John Van Kooten
Hang on guys. All of that is based on wrong assumptions made by modelers many decades ago, when proper research (and the internet) was still in its infancy.

Here's the lowdown:

Most tracks were made from cast steel and there were several different types of non-magnetic, corrosion resistant types of steel alloys used. That means that they didn't quickly rust (even without paint). Tracks that were actively used did not rust at all. Rusting tracks on a heavy moving vehicle can potentially have devastating effects, crippling or ultimately disabling the vehicle! Not a good idea 😉 Only tracks that are on vehicles that haven't moved for a long time or ones that have been in the ground for decades will eventually develop rust.

Now, there has been some discussion stating that surface rust could happen. For instance, if the tank stood still overnight. This assumption is based on observing tracks on, f.i., modern day building equipment. However, it is not correct to compare modern day tracks to the ones designed by the Germans in WWII because, as I have stated in previous paragraph, those were specifically manufactured using very specific steel alloys which prevented them from rusting.

The cast steel type used in the manufacturing process gives tracks a typical dark toned steel-like color. This can be observed on many surviving track links. And that is also where things go south. Modelers made assumptions based on seeing a few surviving examples that had no paint left on them, i.e., they looked black although they originally were dark steel grey but patina / aging made them look black. Those assumptions were made without actually knowing facts or putting much effort in knowing the facts.

Much research has been done in the meantime though.

- Actively used WWII tracks did not rust, period.

- All tracks were painted in the factory where they were manufactured before being delivered for use on a vehicle. Usually the tracks were painted in the (base) color of the vehicle they were meant to go on. For this reason tracks that went on early war vehicles were painted in dark grey (Field Grey) and, for instance, on many DAK vehicles the tracks were coated in Dunkelgelb.
There are surviving examples of King Tiger tracks and they were painted both in Field Grey and in Dunkelgelb. It is unknown in which cases which color was used. But probably, at that time, paint that was available at that particular point in time, was used because they didn't have anything else (that is an assumption on my part though, I don't know for sure). Fact is though, there were King Tiger tracks painted in Field Grey.

- Tracks were never painted black. There's not a single piece of evidence to support that, contrary to tracks being painted in other colors (surviving track examples, color photos, archive material). It is possible that tracks painted in Field Grey that were wet were mistaken by modelers in the past for being black? Again, an assumption on my part, I don't know 😉 But also again, fact is, tracks were not painted black.

- When a tank received winter white wash, the tracks were often also white washed (not just the spare ones but also the actual runs on the wheels). However, there is no "Golden Rule" there because that was done in the field. So whomever white washed the tank could either include the tracks or not. It's a 50/50 case. There are archive photos that show this and there are surviving examples of Panzer III/IV Ostketten that still have remnants of white wash on them. So it is fact that it did happen.

Okay, so before I have written a book I will stop now 😛 I hope this helps!

Urban Gardini
Thanks mate! Exactly the kind of info I was asking for!

Rui S
Some say, the recipe for a convincing track color is: Mix equal parts of Tamiya red brown (XF-64) and Tamiya flat black (XF-1). What comes out is a really nice, dark gray with a hint of red...

Martin
Interesting, John. So you're saying that the tracks of WWII german vehicles should be painted in either Field grey or Dark yellow, and not metal?

And by Field grey, you mean "Panzergrau" and not "Feldgrau"?

John Van Kooten
@Urban: you're very welcome 👍 🙂

@Martin: It's not just me saying that😉 it has been researched extensively by professional historians, most notably Dr. Peter Schwarzmann, who also wrote the book "Panzerketten", from which some of my information comes.

Yes, tracks were usually painted in the base color of the vehicle they were meant for. So, for instance, Dunkelgrau for early Panzers and Dunkelgelb for DAK vehicles. But like I said, although this was the most common practice, they also used other colors, different from the base color of the vehicle. Like the example I mentioned with the King Tiger tracks, of which surviving examples were painted both in Dark Grey and Dunkelgelb.

No matter what though, tracks WERE painted and were NEVER painted black and/or blank unpainted cast steel 🙂

Where I say Field Grey I mean Dark Grey. But to be clear about colors and color names and to avoid confusion, here's a (highly) condensed overview of panzer colors as used & named by the Germans:

1937 - 1940 : Dunkelgrau Nr. 46 (dark gray) with camouflage pattern Dunkelbraun Nr. 45 (dark brown)
1941 - 1942 - Dunkelgrau Nr. 46 was renumbered to Dunkelgrau RAL 7021 (so it was the same color, just a different name)
1943 - 1945 - Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 (dark yellow) with stripes of Rotbraun RAL 8017 (red-brown) + Olivgrün RAL 6003 (olive green) on top.

John Van Kooten
@Rui: that's what most modelers like esthetically😉 It is, however, not correct and not convincing. But it may look good on a model 🙂

There is a big difference between what we like to see (and have grown accustomed to) and what is actually historically correct.

I am not saying it is wrong to use one or the other, though. It's up to the modeler to decide whatever he/she wants to do. I am merely providing this information for those that want to know 👍

Urban Gardini
I like it even if it's not like we're used to. Too bad that I can't fix all the errors that I've made on my kit but I try to fix those I can.

Urban Gardini
I looked at Tammy's instructions for their new Ausf. D and was glad when I saw that they've got the handles correct on the hatches.

Rui S
@ John, no problems, I was just saying what some modeller's like to use, and I find what you wrote very interesting indeed, so Thx for sharing.
I also would like to know if you are speaking about the tracks hanging on the AFV only, or also about the ones actually in use on the running gear?
But of course I agree with you «It's up to the modeller to decide».

John Van Kooten
I understand Rui 👍 🙂

This concerns all tracks. Both the spare ones as wel as the runs on the running gear. All came painted when they left the manufacturing plants.

Bart Goesaert
nice comments about the tracks. About the painting of these in dunkelgelb or other camouflage colours, could this also have something to do with the fact that German panzercrews could apply a self-applied camo in the field at their likes, to optimally adapt to their surroundings? When they spraypainted their vehicles I don't think they removed or protected the tracks so that the paint seemingly was applied to the tracks, but in fact it was overspray from the painting of the vehicle? What other reason could there be to paint a track that would be dust-, mud-, snow-, ... covered with minutes in action? Sparetracks that are painted intentionally, that i can understand

Rui S
@John, but the ones on the running gear would loose their paint in a few hours of manoeuvring the tank.
I've some colour photos that show what you have been saying, and some others that show how relative this colour subjects can get, if you know what I mean.

Urban Gardini
It seems to be a good thing that I helped open this can of worm. There's probably a lot of other errors that we builders do without knowing it.

Jan Hazes
Great info John. But to add to the issue at large you have to account for scale as well. Painting the tracks black,while authentic, would imho not look that great on a small scale model. Too much contrast.

Rui S
@Urban, yes this is very interesting, I'm thinking of, put some colour photos in the "military thinking" album to add this discussion.
@Jan, no one is thinking off painting them black, quit the opposite. Black is away far from authentic and never done, just as John explained.

Jan Hazes
I stand corrected. i misread something there. On a side note. Musea seem to like black for tracks.

Rui S
I understand Jan, and that's why I also don't like very much to follow those Walk Around photos. I really prefer the contemporary photos. Less chances to get it absolutely wrong.

Urban Gardini
I've got this from Ron Hayes and he's one of the more knowledgeable out there when it comes to the Panther.

Quote
"German tank tracks were never left in bare metal for obvious reasons.
The majority of tracks were supplied fresh from the foundry in primer, so in the case of the Panther usually in rotprimer (red primer) - usually a dark reddish-brown colour rather than the fire-engine red often depicted).
However, there were many and varied foundries involved, so Panther track could also be seen in grey primer or indeed black.
Those serving the Pz.IV series were mainly supplied in dark grey primer l believe, though again, red primer and black appear.
Again, Tiger I tracks were seen both in red and grey primer.
Ron"

Calvin Gifford
Very neat! Does the Group Build have it's own page?

Urban Gardini
Yes, it's an ongoing never ending groupbuild with the intent of getting rid of our started but abandoned kits. You'll find it among the groupbuilds in that section.

Calvin Gifford
Great! Thanks - I will look for it!

Martin
So, John's opinion differs very much from the stuff Ron Hayes says...which one to follow?

Urban Gardini
Who said that it was easy? 😉

Martin
At least I do know that the color I've been using on my models, metal, is wrong....

Urban Gardini
I really like this when information en masse comes up on a subject like the tracks in this case. We who build AFV's/Warplanes/Warships get a lot of history knowledge on the way. I'm sure that the same aplies for the civilian builders, race cars for example. And I do like history and as I use to say. "History isn't everything, everything is history!".

Rui S
@Martin, for sure the track parts in contact with the pavements and steel running wheels (for example), will get metal coloured.

Martin
@Rui, yes thanks, I realised that, but the whole track would not be all metal. Just the contact-surfaces. Of course, there's other wear and tear, like dirt ect. as well, but there probably should always be some kind of leftover paint on the tracks. So I'll just have to keep that in mind when painting.

John Van Kooten
Okay, to elaborate: what I wrote is NOT an opinion, it is fact, based on new and current research done by professionals (not amateur wannebee historians).

It was researched EXTENSIVELY by a number of professional historians using archived documents and by examining (in labs) surviving examples of tracks (not just single tracks but complete runs as well).

Tracks were painted (base coated) in the factory, not in the field. But as I have explained, after the fact it would be possible for maintenance crews to paint the tracks any color they wanted. And they would.
The tracks would not lose their paint very quickly (as is evident from the surviving examples), especially not the factory applied coats because those are special hardened paints, containing lead. Not your average wall paint! You also can't compare those paints with paints we have these days, which indeed would not last a minute.
There are still surviving examples of tracks (found in the ground) that contain winter white wash... and that was hand applied. So go figure😉
The only surface of tracks that would indeed lose its paint, are the parts that are in direct contact with the (road-)wheels and hard surfaces (like the ground). That's why there are parts that have been grounded back to blank metal because they are in constant touch with the ground / street

What Ron says is simply not true and based on (old, hard dying) assumptions. NOT A SINGLE TRACK was EVER painted black, not on Panthers either. Black primer was used by the Germans in WWII... uhm... never.

But this is the problem right here, when someone "knowledgable" says something, it is immediately taken for fact, without doing any additional research or questioning their statements whatsoever. I wonder where he obtained his knowledge about tracks? Also from the same old sources that are plain wrong?
Even Jentz did not get everything right! There have been huge developments in the last years concerning a great deal of subjects, where old facts based on assumptions were easily disproven and replaced with new proven facts. Even facts that in the past were thought to be suffienctly proven turned out to be wrong.

Don't make the mistake of stopping your own research or keeping up to date on matters that are of importance. Also, always question everything anyone says, including what I say, because you have no clue who I am or what I actually know. Again, do your own research if you want to be sure about something. Read books, but if you take old books, make sure they actually contain facts that are still current. Some books (both old and new!) are full of mistakes / errors and/or contain plain lies and made up "facts".

I have already mentioned one of my main sources, the book "Panzerketten", written by Dr. Peter Schwarzmann. Go buy it if you want to know more.

That's it 🙂 I am not going to go back and forth to disprove those old and hard dying "facts" of back in the day. Take what I wrote as a base for your own research or completely ignore it. Your choice 🙂

Jan Hazes
Well sais John. At the end of the day it's your model. Some want to make them as historically accurate as possible. Others apply more artists' freedom. It's all a matter of personal preference. Regardless I thinks it's great peolpe share their knowledge here and discuss about it. Saves me a lot of research😉

John Van Kooten
I agree with everything you said, Jan 🙂 👍 it is exactly why I am providing the information "as is". Some want to use the information to their advantage and others just want to model + paint. It's all good and I support both groups to the fullest 🙂 I also sometimes completely ignore historical facts, just to make my model look different or better 🙂

Urban Gardini
This just gets better and better!

Rui S
Yeap. Also, the problem in accuracy for me is, when I look in the contemporary colour photos, I do not know or distinguish for sure, what colour photos are originals from those who are colourized.

Bart Goesaert
does that mather in a way? every brand of film had it's own discolororations (more greenish, more blueish, ...), seperate from a cloudy sky, a sunny sky, rain, shadow, ....

So what is the right color then? Nothing but a good guess in a certain way...

Rui S
@Bart, Hehehe you are right mate, and also copy of copy's and some scanned ones, and looking at them in a TFT LCD or other type of screen, etc. But anyway I think contemporary colour photos always help getting the result you want. If you get the historically correct colour tone that's other thing, don't forgetting the weathered and use in time effects on the original paint colour. Maybe you can achieve it only buy chance or pure luck. So, the important thing is that you find it convincing and you like it.

Urban Gardini
A little more work done now on the kit. I'm not one of the faster builders, but quite possible one of the slowest builders out there. Let's hope that I can manage to keep up the steam so I'm gonna end this build and walk away happy from it...

Urban Gardini
Wasn't happy with the kits Magic Tracks so I ordered some replacement tracks that arrived today for this build.

Rui S
Looking good, and nice work on the drivers visor.keep it going Mate

Kerry COX
For what it's worth, I would like to throw in my two cents worth of comment on the 'state of the tracks' that I have often seen depicted as rusty/muddy, and otherwise, used tracks.
My history is that I was based at Puckapunyal in Victoria in the 1960's when Australia was using the British "Centurion", and in that time, I was exposed to these tanks on a daily basis, so a bit of first hand info may help when It comes to depicting ANY tracks on ANY vehicle.
To begin with, rust never made an appearance on any of the tracks I saw, and as for mud and dirt, it didn't last more than a couple of seconds after the tank got mobile.
The 'wear' factor was quite pronounced on all parts of the track construction, and usually, it was highly polished from continuously being in touch with the abrasive nature of dirt, sand, dust, stones and anything else the tracks came in contact with.
The inner area of the tracks that were in contact with the 'road wheels' and drive sprockets was where the 'brightest' and shiniest metal was seen, something I have very rarely seen done on any armour build I have seen over the years.
The tracks were and always will be the hardest working area of any tracked vehicle, and some/most modellers seem to overlook that fact.
When you see a vehicle come in off the range, the tracks are glistening from the constant polishing of the earth, and it looks spectacular on a bright sunny day.
So, there I have said my 'piece' and I hope you all will get the chance one day to look at a tank that has just finished 'doing it's thing', as you will find I am right.
I never saw any paint on the tracks that were un-crated when they arrived from the Britts, but I do not know anything about wether the Germans did that at all.
Cheers.
🙂 👍.

Urban Gardini
Thanks mates!

Urban Gardini
I look and look at references and there seems to be a lot of variations as to which way the tracks is oriented when mounted. \/ \/, /\ \/, \/ /\ as oriented seen from the front is the variations that I've seen so far. I gather that the tracks got turned by the crews over time in order to get an even wear n' tear and to prolong the lifespan of the tracks but what was the right way from the start? As you all know I'm gonna do this one as a fresh to the battlefield at Kursk so I'm after the original orientation of the tracks.

Rui S
I'll see watt I can find for you Mate.

Urban Gardini
Thanks mate!

Rui S
Urban, see the following link.
Hope it helps.
If you need more info just say please.

Military Thinking MT1 | Album by mig (1:35)

BTW, nice detail in that tracks, Mate