King Tiger w/zimmerit (Dragon )

H K
Looking good. I will be following as I have this kit in my stash.
Btw. if you want to paint your commander in black panzer uniform, I cannot recommend this set enough modellbau-koenig.de/..an__i228_16242_0.htm ( no connection with the shop, only a happy customer)

John Van Kooten
Following! 😄

And don't worry about the Zimmerit being intact. It wasn't exactly pudding😉 so there are lots of examples in which the Zimmerit is completely intact on heavily worn tanks 👍 You can safely do that thing you are so good at! I mean weathering of course 😄😉 👍

Gábor Bélik
HK@ thanks but I prefer oils and enamel when painting small details and I don't have a wonderful relationship with Vallejo.
And I recently bought a lot of oils 🙂
John@ Thanks. Probably it will be weathered a bit more. I can't help it 🙂

John Van Kooten
Haha! Yeah, I can totally relate to that😉 Can't wait to see how this turns out! 👍

And good luck with the figure painting! I'm on that same road as well, where I am going to try my hand at some figure painting😉

Es-haq Khosravi
I'm in!

Gábor Bélik
Thanks guys. Will se how this thing turns out.

Michael Razz
i'm curious about this one.....🙂
Good luck with the weathering!

Kerry COX
How much reference material are you accessing for it ?

Kerry COX
Gabby, The application of Zimmerit was usually done at the factory. The many variations seen in application designs, from the regular ridge-shaped pattern, to a less common waffle-shaped pattern, are mostly related to the factory producing each type of AFV. For example, the waffle pattern was seen almost exclusively on Sturmgeschütz III assault guns. In general, vehicles already in service were not coated with Zimmerit. just a bit of history for you. 🙂

Gábor Bélik
Kerry: I will be honest. Usually the only reference I use is the painting guide or just search online for some cool camo. 🙂
I usually don't care about historical accuracy regarding the turret numbers. 🙂
Thanks for the lesson, I have a waffle z stug in my stash. Looks awesome.

Kim Branders
I'm in. 👍

Kerry COX
It was something I came across as I was researching for my Dragon 1/35 street fighter, the Stug III Ausf.G when I remembered looking at your Tiger with the Zimmermit, so I thought I would pass it on. 🙂

H K
OT: One of the myths, which will never die, is field applied zimmerit. Besides being a complex procedure ( nothing like let`s go to the hobby shop and buy some zimmerit 😄 ) , it needed 6 days to dry.

Holger Kranich
Regarding the waffle Zimmerit, as far as i know this specific kind of pattern was only applied at MAN factory. And not on StuGs exclusively. On Jagdpanthers too.

And i only heard about erasing Zimmerit in the field. In September 44 there where rumors that Zimmerit could catch fire when hit by grenades. Many crews decided to erase the Zimmerit immediately then. And the OKH stopped applying Zimmerit since september 44.

Holger Kranich
Sorry, dont meant waffle pattern, i meant square pattern for use at MAN.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmerit

Holger Kranich
I just found a very interesting website regarding Zimmerit and its patterns:
panzerworld.com/zimmerit

Gábor Bélik
Now thats a really useful site. Thanks Holger.

John Van Kooten
There were three major variants of the waffle pattern. The waffle pattern was not uncommon. The ACTUAL waffle pattern (squares with little squares in them) was added exclusively by the Alkett factories on StuG III's. No other vehicles received that type of waffle pattern zimmerit.

Other vehicles that received waffle pattern zimm include Panther, Jagdpanther, Tiger I Ausf. E and Sturmhaubitze but those are not the Alkett waffle pattern, those were squared patterns, which are also commonly referred to as waffle patterns.

By the way, zimmerit WAS applied in the field to vehicles on active duty! Vehicles were specifically recalled for applications of zimmerit. It did take 2 to 3 days to dry. But not every vehicle in the field was in combat all the time. There was plenty of "down-time" to do maintenance and recalls. It is the sole reason why there are so many different zimmerit patterns and why there are Panthers with zimmerit during the Kursk battle (which took place BEFORE the actual order to add zimmerit was formally applied)! It is also one of the main reasons why you see vehicles with damaged zimmerit. Factory applied zimmerit was MUCH tougher compared to field applications.

Kerry COX
Wow, Did I start something or WHAT !!!!!

Gábor Bélik
If it comes with this load of useful info keep starting those somethings 🙂

Kerry COX
LOL, thanks Gabor, I was just passing on something I found interesting and I never expected so many responses, but that is what this place is here for hey !!!

Kerry COX
Wikkipedia has a great blurb on the Zimm as well with a whole lot of sross reference links too.

John Van Kooten
It is a very interesting subject, Kerry 👍 🙂 over the years I have done a LOT of research on all of the different types of Zimmerit, when they were applied, by whom and how.

One thing I think I should warn you for, is to not trust all of the Zimmerit information available on Wikipedia. Some of it is incorrect. As is some of the information on the webpage in the link Holger provided. In the pattern list it states that the Alkett waffle pattern (the 6th image in the list) was also applied to Panther, Tiger and Sturmhaubitze but this is most definitely not true! It was a different pattern that was applied to those vehicles! As I said in my previous post, the true waffle pattern was exclusive to Alkett and never applied to anything other than StuG III's. Alkett did not manufacture Panthers or Tigers.

Kerry COX
I have seen the Zimmermit thing really overwhelm some modellers and It may look good on the model but a lot of modellers place too much emphasis on it and the "rivet counter" mentality takes over, as like you just said, there is a world of info on it but how do you decide which to go with as gospel ?!. I did open a pandoras box on this one and it was not my intention, as I am no authority on the matter, I simply said (Doh!) "Have a look at this", LOL and now look what happened. Whoopee !!!!!!

John Van Kooten
Hahaha! No worries mate! 🙂 it's a good thing that we can discuss and exchange information and learn new things 🙂

And even though I am someone to go very indepth and goes through great lengths to gather information on certain subjects, and I have been doing that for almost 25 years now, I am in no way the rivet counter type when I am building my kits 😄 in fact, and I have said it a couple of times on this website, I think everyone should just build whatever and however they like to build their kit! In the end it is all about enjoying our hobby, right? 🙂

And while we're at it, I actually HATE modeling zimmerit and if I can I will avoid it like the plague 😛 lol another good reason to do the research, to be able to avoid it ( right? Hunter? 😉 )

So don't look at it as having opened pandora's box but instead look at it as an opportunity to learn from one another 👍 and I certainly do not know everything either and can make mistakes 😄 I have already learned a lot from our mates right here, which is exactly why I thoroughly enjoy being here 🙂

Kerry COX
Thank you for your understanding John, and yes, I totally agree with every word. My "rivet counter" comment is a gripe I have with some guys who can look at a model on a display or competition and zero in on all that they can find "inaccurate" and completely overlook the effort or what Is staring them in the face, like you said, the "interpretation" of said subject and then they can and do, waffle on at great length about it. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Zimmermit to me is "overkill" and even though it did exist, like you, I wont touch it as I find it just too complex. But that is the challenge of the stuff, not the accuracy of pattern or wether some trooper in the field had a go or the factory fit.

And from what I can gather, the practice was stopped pretty early in the peace as the tanks were needed in the field and it just took too long to dry !!!

John Van Kooten
I totally understand, Kerry 👍 and I actually appreciate anyone that brings up any information they have obtained! Whether it is correct or not, doesn't matter, because it inspires others to join in and share their pieces of gathered information. This is how we all benefit from eachothers knowledge 🙂 I just love the interaction 👍

And I actually feel the EXACT same way about people that completely ignore any and all of the hard work that went into building a fundamentally beautiful model but instead complain about a single detail that is incorrect in some way... *sigh* 🤔

As for halting the application of zimmerit: There are two (documented) certain facts.

The first is that is that zimmerit was totally ineffective. Not against the sticky-bombs and magnetic mines it was designed for, it was effective against those, but simply because more powerful anti-tank weapons were being developed, like the bazooka, and therefor zimmerit was useless. Magnetic mines were never that much of a problem to begin with because they were rarely actually deployed in combat.

The second fact is that there were reports of the zimmerit catching fire when being fired upon, rendering their precious tanks useless. Later on, those reports were proven to be incorrect because the zimmerit actually wasn't the cause of the fires. However, it was one of the main reasons for halting the application anyway.

But what you said and what HK also kind of pointed out earlier, could most definitely be another reason. At some point they just couldn't afford to have their tanks standing around useless in the factory or in the field waiting for the zimm to dry 🙂 I am definitely adding that to my list of other possible reasons for halting the application of zimm 👍

One last item of interest maybe, for those that don't know it yet:
Zimmerit was NOT designed to render the vehicle anti-magnetic! This is a BIG misunderstanding amongst many. Zimmerit on its own does not have anti-magnetic properties whatsoever.

Zimmerit wasn't merely designed as a means of protection against magnetic mines. It was also protection against sticky-bombs. Making something anti-magnetic only would obviously not protect against sticky-bombs.

The way it worked was that the rough, ridged surface provided less surface contact causing sticky bombs to fail to "stick". Also, the reason why zimmerit isn't flat but rough/ridged is because it provided a certain amount of distance between a magnetic mine and the hull surface. Because of this minimal distance magnetic explosive devices would fail to penetrate the surface.
Those are the two properties zimmerit provided. Less surface contact to defeat sticky bombs and distance to defeat magnetic mines.

Kerry COX
Ah, I feel better now. LOL So Wikkipedia did get some things right, as I did read those facts you were talking about there, especially about the tanks just 'standing around'. I do enjoy the dialog that goes on here, in fact, I always 'Check my mail" each time I pass my comp. 🙂 as it really is a lively forum hey !Cheers.

Gábor Bélik
Whoah what a discussion going on 🙂
All I can say that I really don't like zimmerit because it is kind of limit your options while weathering and it's kind of difficult to make it look good. I only build this model because I built it in 1/72 and that didn't look so good and I didn't built any 'common' german tanks for years plus I wanted to do something 'big' 🙂

Murad ÖZER
it's just one of those techniques to try out if the modeler has patience, time or simply wants to try something new out just for the fun of it. a museum/pro modeller otoh might be hard pressed of course which changes the game a lot. that being said something as simple as a bottle cap rolled over air drying putty can yield satisfactory results with some care, as already been said it's about the mentality in the end.

H K
I am pretty sure the drying time was a big factor in the decision to end zimmerit. Another one was probably weight- the Stug III for example was on its limit ( in reality over it) to the front.
Modellingwise I like the look of it and I am glad Dragon does its w/Zimmerit series and there is Atak. My own attempts- let`s better not talk about it 🙂

Kerry COX
Don't mind us Gabor, we have forgotten you and ran off in the other direction. Thanks for bringing us back to earth. Sorry !!!! 🙂

Gábor Bélik
I don't mind. I'ts kind of entertaining 🙂

H K
What was the topic again? 😄

Kerry COX
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, I dunno !!!

Gábor Bélik
The topic was....thet the metal barrel is not worth it in some cases?

John Van Kooten
LOL! 😄

Ah yeah! I totally agree! I also think a metal barrel is completely overrated in the case where the muzzle brake is still a piece of plastic. I mean, what is the use of the metal barrel in that case? A slide molded single piece plastic one would look EXACTLY the same once painted 🙂
In fact, the metal barrel makes things more complicated because it makes it harder to remove gaps between the plastic and metal parts and you would need to use CA glues instead of just being able to use the trusty Tamiya Thin glue! ( EVERYONE uses Tamiya Thin, right?! 😄 lol )

Anthony Flanagan
John - what is the best info source regarding Zimmerit, online or otherwise? Just curious.
Thanks,

Gábor Bélik
Tamiya thin glue is the best! IMO

John Van Kooten
Hi Anthony,

Unfortunately, as with most things WWII related, there is no complete and 100% accurate single source. It has taken me quite a while (over a number of years, on and off), a LOT of reading, studying wartime photographs & documents and researching to put a large number of bits and pieces together and/or strike them off the list because they were wrong.
I will not often refer to articles on the internet because the internet is riddled with incorrect information and it is usually impossible to verify sources and/or author. Of course not all information is false but you have to do your own research to verify it, if you are willing to dig that deep, that is.

So unfortunately, there is not a book on zimmerit I can recommend reading because I don't think there is one. I can recommend reading tons of books on German armour and study the texts, photographs and wartime documents usually included in the better quality books to gather the information you need because zimmerit is usually discussed on the side, in small paragraphs, or even merely in a single line of text next to a photograph.

Having said that, how much information on zimmerit does one really need anyway? 🙂 For me personally, I have decided it is enough to know how & why it works, time frames, to know the different patterns, which manufacturers used that specific pattern (or if it is a field applied one) and lastly, to which vehicles it was applied. For that purpose most Wiki articles give you more than enough information, even though not always 100% correct. I have done the research once and I don't think zimmerit is important enough (to me personally) to do that again😉

John Van Kooten
@Gábor: I totally agree! It's the only plastic glue I use 🙂

Anthony Flanagan
John - I suspected that was going to be your answer. When I first got back into things I was reading Sheppard Paine who said, "more hot air has been blown," about vehicle colors etc. I found that to be very true and finally have gotten to the "it's close enough" when painting. I asked because I had found a lot of stuff on Zimmerit then just had to stop researching before it made me crazy...er. 😉
So I agree that it is just not that important to worry about. I Just wanted to make sure that I was not missing something.
Still, I like listening to or reading someone who really knows his stuff. So just keep the info coming! 👍👍

John Van Kooten
Yeah, research can drive you mad at times 😛 I too go with the "if it looks good, it IS good" attitude when I'm building my kits 😉

And I also always listen to / read people that know their stuff. Then, if I think it is worth it, I go and do my own research and "compare notes". It is how you learn new things 👍 🙂

Anyway, I'm sorry for hijacking your post, Gábor! I will stop now and do my own posts if something else comes up 👍 🙂

Gábor Bélik
Still don't mind until it's useful 🙂

Gábor Bélik
Did a little PE...

Murad ÖZER
about the colors, one has to realize that german's had figured out the color theory and harmony and applied it to their camos extensively during ww1 then they probably realized yes the colors were important but what's more important was the shape of the pattern rather than the colors hence the disruptive and ambush schemes.. long story short don't search for the exact color chips, instead look at the natural habitat of europe, russia and africa, then pick up a color wheel and figure your own german grey and apply it to scale. one might find out that the german grey is not going towards the blue but towards the green rather against the popular belief and accompanying weathering products - Paine was and is right in that regard no doubt!
mandatory note as usual: IMHO 🙂

Gábor Bélik
As far as I know panzer Grey was indeed goin towards blue but the grey that the SS used was -like you said- going towards green. At least that what's the AK SS profile guide book says.

Fabian D.
There are "said to be"/"good" original color shots which point in the direction that pazergrey was quite close to black. With a good coat of dust and the influence of other effects it could easily seem more twoards blue or green. So you´re actually quite free in that decision (as you also have to included the scale effect for example). At least as long it´s not light grey close to a dirty white.😉

Rui S
I like the discussion and the work in the kit Gábor. Is the metal gun included in the kit? As to the colours... the U.V. has a lot to say about changing tones, so if it's going to be a well done light grey due to this, plus all the weathering causes, it doesn't shock me...😢 In the field and time lapses, the tone variations would be immense... About the zimmerit, the field applications would be less them perfect. 🤔 So, definitely not an extremist rivet counter or a zoom in (closer than 50cm, in a 1/35 scale kit) guy ...😄

Ivo Fanczi
Very nice ☺ i want to see more............ awesome thumbs up

Gábor Bélik
Thanks guys.
@Rui yes it was included

Holger Kranich
Thats a really nice and surely not easy paintjob! Weathering is great, what paint have you used? AK?

Peter H
Really impressive work on the KT Gabor, will keep an eye on your build. 🙂

Kerry COX
Very creative work on the cammo set up. Well done. 🙂

Gábor Bélik
Thanks everyone.
It is good to see that my KT got noticed. 🙂
@Holger: As usual yes 🙂 the late camo mod set.

Holger Kranich
I have it , too! Absolute nice paints!

Vorya hidaryan
Absolutely Beautiful!

Gábor Bélik
Thanks Vorya.

Ulf Petersen
Great!👍 I will follow closely. Keep on!

Gábor Bélik
Thanks Ulf.

H K
Fantastic 👍 Impressive camo.

Gerald
👍

Gábor Bélik
Thanks guys!

Rui S
Congrt. Gábor. Nice work on that unusual camo, and turret tracks, and dust. And the commander?

Gábor Bélik
Well I have never painted figures before and it turned out harder than I thought so I decided to practice before I add any. 🙂 It would have been looked odd to add a figure that looks like it has been painted by 10 year old. 🙂

Ivo Fanczi
Good work! keep going this awesome work! thumbs up!!!!!!

Kim Branders
Nice finnish

Gábor Bélik
Thanks Ivo.
Thanks Kim.

Eric
WOW!

Kerry COX
I had a link here for you to look at about figure painting but I messed it up. Sorry Gábor

Tierra del Fuego Alejandro
superb

John
I love all of this. Weathering, camo, tracks. 👍