Eduard F-4C "Good Evening Da Nang"

Clifford Keesler
OK, I'm drooling. LOL.

Derek Jordan
Ha. So far I would say I am very impressed with the kit.

Kerry COX
Derek, this link has some of the best images of the F-4 I have ever seen and especially the Martin Baker bang seat.
forum.largescaleplanes.com/
Cheers mate. 🙂

Derek Jordan
Thanks, Kerry. I think part of your link is missing, though. I clicked it and just went to the main page.

Kerry COX
OK Derek, what you do when the page opens up, you will see there, all on the one line next to each other, is, "Large Scale Planes", 'Forums', 'members' and 'calendar', put the cursor on LSP and click 'Large scale planes' and it will open up a new page and there will be number of small boxes, and one will be "Walk arounds".
Click on that box and a list all kinds of birds will appear, just scroll down through them and the F-4 will appear in all kinds of variants. 🙂

Marc Stecher
I´m in!

Clifford Keesler
Derek, main gear assembly sucks, see my comment to Kerry, and on my WIP notes.

Derek Jordan
I saw that. I also worried about that in my RF-4c build. I've had some trouble today too.

Clifford Keesler
I want the resin nozzels, but I don't think wifey will go 32.00 for a set of nozzels. LOL.

Clifford Keesler
Dar, you are trucking right along. I am just now starting my cockpit. I like all of the resin ordance, will have to check that stuff out.

Derek Jordan
Cliff, so far it's been a pretty easy build. Much better than the Hasegawa RF-4C I built. Besides the problem with the PE, that is. The resin nozzles are very nice. Eduard did a great job with all their add ons, as per usual.

Thomas Bischoff
looks like some serious work going on!

Clifford Keesler
I am getting the Brassin F-4 resin weapons set, and a set of wolf pack resin nozells.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, thats awesome! I think you'll like them. I played around with making sure I could get the landing gear installed. I can, which is a relief. I also played around with the inlets and think I'm going to just put FOD covers on them to avoid the pretty nasty seams on the inside that there is no way I can cover up without an insane effort.

Clifford Keesler
I was looking at F.O.D. covers also. LOL.

Kerry COX
I got mine today, the FOD covers I mean, and also the Brassin ejection seats. But its good to read about the seams inside the intakes, as I would have done something stupid.

Derek Jordan
Kerru, I spent some time working the seams inside the intakes. After some dry fitting, I realized that there are some seams I just can't overcome. Oh well, it looks good with FOD cobers.

Björn Leichsenring
A very big Project, i'm curious about the result.

Marko
Excellent work so far. Keep up the good work. 👍

Derek Jordan
Thanks Marko.

Kerry COX
Derek, Thanks for the crystal clear images mate, as they are of immense value to me as I progress through mine. And, the detail on the cockpit panels is just superb, 🙂

Donald Dickson II
OK, so the second pic with all the extras. That all comes with the kit?

Derek Jordan
Donald, that is a negative. The kit comes with resin exhaust, ejection seats, canopy masks and some PE. Basically the stuff in the bottom right corner. I added to that.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, id like to change my stance on these Eduard weapons. The sidewinders are extremely disappointing. They are bent, the fins are out of alignment, and im not pleased. I will be using the kit plastic. The sparrows, compared to kit parts, are a wash at best. If i didnt already have them, i wouldnt spent the money as they look almost identical to the kit sparrows. The bombs seem to be superior in detail to the kit parts and im pleased with them, at least so far. It seems, to my eye, that Academy did a fine job on the weapons and Eduard's just arent that much of an improvement.

Clifford Keesler
OK I will only invest in the bombs. My "B" is kicking my backside. I got the cockpit all done today, and the intakes installed. After everything was dry, I thought I would dry fit the fuselage top to see how it would look. The darn top will not seat over the cockpit, I wind up with about a 1/16 inch gap, and no matter what I do it won't fit. I guess I am going to have to shorten the aft cockpit bulkhead as that seems to be where my problem is. I have not installed the IFR probe bay yet, wonder how much trouble that will give me. I could not get rid of the seams in my intake either.

Clifford Keesler
Yours is looking very nice. I got the F-4J finished today so now can concentrate soley on the "B". Will get some pictures up tomorrow of both.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, dry fitting presentso a similar gap for me but I think I can drive it out with pressure. Well see.

Clifford Keesler
OK so it isn't something I did.

Bryce Nicely
Nice seeing some progress on this baby. That's a shame about the Sidewinders.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, I'm thinking there might be some interference with the intake trunks as my gap is about a 1/16 nearest them and goes to flush at the nose.

Derek Jordan
Bryce, it's coming along. I spent a couple of hours today between the kit Sidewinders and Brassin Sparrows. I imagine the bombs will take 2x that long (and I haven't even gotten to prime/paint/decal).

Donald Dickson II
Gotcha. I am going to get this kit. Just have to decide if I want to spend that much more money after dropping 100 for the kit.

Derek Jordan
Donald, I bought mine on ebay for much less than that. Shop around and you can probably get it for much cheaper than 100$.

I just looked on ebay.

Here it is for 83, free shipping. That's the best I could find.

EBay item number: 351560335997

Clifford Keesler
I got my fuselage fit problems solve Derek, I took the cockpit tub off of the nose wheel well and hit the top of the well with a sanding stick, reinstalled the pit and dropped the fuselage top on, perfect fit no gap. So my fuselage is all closed up.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, that's great. I wonder if I can do the same. Mine is glued down pretty well.

Clifford Keesler
The pictures of mine are up.

Derek Jordan
A note to all those building Academy's F-4C: Apparently Academy has an issue with their payload layout. The inner wing pylons did not have both a 3 bomb MER and twin rails for sidewinders. If you are going for realism, choose one or the other. From what I understand Navy F-4B's had this ability but for whatever reason the Air Force did not have that capability until later versions of the Phantom. For my particular payload, given that the aircraft I am building was used mostly for CAS missions, I am going with a load of 4 sparrows, and 12 MK.82's (3 on each inner pylon, and 6 on the centerline station) with a 370gallon drop tank on the outer station of each wing. I can't find a load diagram showing that this was a common used payload (typically in this scenario there wouldn't be sparrows at all), but I don't think there is a reason that this load-out *couldn't* have been used.

Kerry COX
Derek, I searched around and found this bit of information and maybe it has some solutions.
store.yahoo.com/cgi-..1+E9KcMa+index.html+

[img1]

Derek Jordan
Kerry, that link goes to aviation art prints, or am I missing something?😉

Kerry COX
Derek, I am bewildered myself now, because when I checked it on posting it, the link got me back to the load out information, and all I can think of now is that it has become a "Blind Link" as they are called. Sorry about that, but I will get back on that search page again.

Clifford Keesler
Derek Phantoms flying Mig cap(OR bomber escort) for the Thuds and Phantoms carrying bombs would typically carry 4 sparrows 4 sidewinders on the inboard pylons and 2 drop tanks on the outer pylons. Usually if the spook was carrying bombs, they would carry a belly tank on the centerline. The Thuds always carried bombs on the center line rack. Hope that helps a little.

Clifford Keesler
Oh I forgot sometimes the Mig caps would carry a three bagger, 3 drop tanks 2 on the wings and a centerline on the belly. This is what I remember seeing them carry. The bombers would carry 12 bombs 6 on each inboard pylon, I don't recall them carrying bombs on all 4 wing stations, but my memory may not be correct.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, very interesting. I linked to a payload chart above that seems to mostly jive with what you're saying. It seems that there was an option for CAS, or air to air, that carried the gun pod centerline instead of the 600 gallon tank.

Clifford Keesler
Yes true, and the gun pod was often carried for CAS, especially the early externally driven pod. The later electrically driven pod from the aircrafts systems was often carried in the air to air mode. If I remember correctly there were some mig kills made with that latter set up.

Derek Jordan
I watched a documentary where a pilot commented on using external gun pods in a dogfight. He said that the safest place in the sky for a Mig was in the crosshairs of an F-4. I laughed.

Clifford Keesler
If I remember correctly (which I probally don't) I think the Air Forces only F-4 ace of the Vietnam war got one mig kill with the Gun. I know Duke Cunnigham's were all missle kills.

Bryce Nicely
Damn, I better hurry up, you're catching up to me. This thing is looking killer though. Nice job on the weapons

Clifford Keesler
My fuselage looks like yours. My weapons I just started.

Clifford Keesler
Wife is not happy, stunk up the house with paint, trying to get the weapons painted. It is to cold to paint down stairs in the paint booth. LOL.

Derek Jordan
I'm painting the second round of Mk.82s about to throw some clear on and apply decals tonight.

Clifford Keesler
I got my bombs painted that is all.

Derek Jordan
I'm on week two and I feel like that is all I have gotten done. whew. this is a marathon build. ha.

Clifford Keesler
You sure have that right.LOL.

Clifford Keesler
Derek the pictures you ask for are up on my album (WIP)

Derek Jordan
I gave up and ordered another set of Eduard Mk. 82 bombs. I wasted two days on the kit bombs. They look pretty good, but the stripe decals were pointless (the Eduard stripes went down without a hitch), and they don't have the same profile as the Eduard resin bombs. I bit the bullet and ordered a set of MER's and TERs to mount them on. Why not, right?

Clifford Keesler
These thing are getting $$$$$.

Clifford Keesler
I ordered a set of Mk 82's also, darn you Derek. But when you brought up the decal problem with the kit bombs, I said to heck with it I wasn't even going to bother. I got my drop tanks painted today. Will start pre shading the bird tomorrow.

Kerry COX
Derek, that is some beautiful work in the cockpit, especially the 'grid' in the whizzo's scope, not to mention the instrument cabling. 🙂 👍 👍 👍

Derek Jordan
Thanks Kerry, but that is all Eduard's pre finished color PE. All I had to do was glue it on with CA glue (that and add future to the dial faces for lenses). The instrument wiring I can take full credit for. 🙂

Derek Jordan
Clifford, this is certainly draining my bank account. Ugh. But, I'm having a good time. It is a far better kit than the Hasegawa RF-4C I built a few months ago. The Eduard Mk. 82 decals worked great with a little effort. The kit decals for the bomb stripes wouldn't bend around that curve no matter what I did. I went so far as trying to soak them in decal softener before I put them on. Nope. I wasted a couple of days trying to get those to work. Also, they didn't look like the Eduard bombs, so if I had used them, my F-4 would have appeared to have two slightly different Mk.82 slicks hanging from the TERs and the MER. I figured I would just go all in with the Eduard bombs and decals.

Clifford Keesler
Sometimes I wonder if I am having a good time. Seems like mine is 1 step forward and 2 steps back. It is a nice kit, I guess that is what is wrong, not used to building an F-4 with so many darn parts. I got mine pre-shaded and first coat of white on the belly. Waiting for it to dry, so I can apply the second coat. That will have to wait until tomorrow as it is cold here and the paint is drying slow. I painted my drop tanks yesterday, and when I picked them up this afternoon, what did I leave behind, a nice set of fingerprints, so will have to wait until they dry,sand, re prime and re spray AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGG. LOL.

Derek Jordan
Oh no! You could just soak the tanks in Dot 3 brake fluid for about 24 hours. The paint comes right off. Wash them and start over. That way you don't have to worry about sanding out any details. At least that has worked for me in the past.

Derek Jordan
That reminds me. For all of you building a USAF F-4C (I guess any USAF version of the Phantom) remember to put the stick in the back seat. The USAF phantoms had dual flight controls (The Eduard instructions don't call for this, but the parts are there).

Kerry COX
As for the throttle as well Derek. :-/
And I would have liked to have had more of the bulkhead 'padding' too, but all we got was that one piece. !!! WTF.?
Part number G-12

Derek Jordan
Talking to a family friend who was a wizzo in RF-4Cs there was no bulkhead padding in the back. I think that was for the B model only, if that makes you feel better. My instructions showed the throttle for the back-seater, so I installed it. I also scratched a little one for the front.

Clifford Keesler
I got the tanks squared away, and the belly came out nice. So tomorrow I will try and start painting the top. And finish the missels. The padded panel was for the "B". The "N" "J" and "S" were the same way. The refueling probe bay was behind that panel.

Kerry COX
OK, I was not aware of the lack of internal 'padding', and that curved item in the Whizzo's rear seat on the left console. Is that the throttle. ?
I also scratched together one for my front seater too. 🙂

Derek Jordan
I think it is supposed to be a throttle. I made one for the front seat after looking at some pictures. My take on the front seater's throttle was more of an H without the vertical pieces above the horizontal piece. If you look at my picture number 36, you can see my take.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, have you uploaded any new pictures? I'd like to see.

Kerry COX
I am currently installing the intakes and tubes, and as I have said, my assembly process is a bit different, but I am dealing with the fit issues better this way. 🙂

Derek Jordan
I've solved the fit issues with the intakes. I bought FOD covers. 🙂

Kerry COX
I have a set myself too. 🙂

Clifford Keesler
I will try and get some pictures tomorrow. I bought F.O.D. covers also, from Spruebrothers, they even came with remove before flight flags.

Kerry COX
Bonus Cliff, I am impressed. By the way, have you seen the 1/48 resin F-4 crew. ?
modellboard.net/inde...msg689363#msg689363
Excellent detail. 🙂

Clifford Keesler
I will check it out. Thanks Kerry.

Kerry COX
Derek, I see where the small amount of filler is on the refuel door mid upper and I have to do the same now, but thankfully, all my other join surfaces came up flush, but I will post the images soon.
Your build is looking as a Phantom should, and I will always say that they are the meanest looking jet ever to fly.🙂
Cheers mate. 👍

Derek Jordan
Thanks Kerry, there is certainly something about the Phantom that exudes a stately power. The filler around the fuel door was just a tiny bit of Perfect Plastic Putty wiped away with a moist q-tip. I had to use a bead of putty where the intakes meet the fuselage. I've sanded those joints flush, and the place along the nose where the top of the fuselage had a bit of a step to the bottom of the fuse. I've got a few more tiny gaps to fill (like along the bottom of the wing tip joints), but other than that, it's probably time to work on the tail, rescribe here and there, and begin priming.

Kerry COX
The tail assembly looks like it could present some issues, but one thing for sure, it is not a build sequence I am all in favour of. 🙁

I have never done so much dry fitting before like I have with this kit, but it has payed dividends in the sense that I have picked up on the issues I thought I was going to have and they were, in the end, nothing to overly worry about, and I will say here.
Watching your build has been a real bonus for me, as I have followed closely, all your steps and heeded your warnings, so thanks mate. 🙂 👍

Derek Jordan
Here is what I learned today: I couldn't get the resin after burner cans in after the fuselage was together. I ended up using the resin nozzles (which are beautiful), and the kit plastic that goes behind it. It fits fine, and I still get the benefit of the resin detail. I started by painting it all gloss black, then a layer of alclad burnt iron on the nozzles, followed by a light misting of alclad stainless steel on the outside of the nozzle, followed that with a light dry brush of model master burnt iron, then alclad white aluminum on the collar behind the nozzle.

Clifford Keesler
I am now convinced my problems with my kit were self-induced. LOL.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, I've seen your other builds. Im fairly certain youre not the problem.

Kerry COX
The Academy kits have got a lot of problems, and the results that Derek and Cliff have achieved are just awesome. 👍
Both of your persistence is one thing I admire.👍

Derek Jordan
Kerry, thanks for the kind words.

I personally think this is a far superior kit to the hasegawa F-4 I built a few months ago. Maybe my hasegawa was a dog, or I got a really good Academy, either way the only thing I can think Hasegawa did better was to make separate splitter plates. That's really a non issue, because a razor saw fixed that 'problem' quickly.

Other than that, I really like Academy's moldings, the one piece fuselage, the one piece nose cone, the fit of the parts has really been very good. It's actually been a fun build so far (knock on wood). The Hasegawa RF-4C about ended me.

Kerry COX
Derek, I think you have seen my bits and pieces of the Academy kit I am building, and, wether it's been the different approach to the ordered 'process' I don't know, but I have not had any 'major' issues, except for the ones I created by 'doing it my way' instead of following the suggested path, but I have enjoyed it.
As for the Haseg kits, I have never had a problem, except for the lack of weapons, and then, they have been not the best as a boxed item anyway.
Thank the stars for the great after market stuff that is so readily available now.
But I though that your RF-4C was just fantastic, especially with all the minute extra bits you came up with, a stunner in my opinion mate. 🙂 👍

Clifford Keesler
Thank you for the kind words Kerry. My build is moving along at a rather good clip now. I have all of the decals applied on one fuselage side. The red paint I had for finishing the tail painting that the decals did not cover was the wrong shade, so now will have to get the correct shade. No big deal, I got the resin seats to where they will fit, so will be using the resin ones instead of the kit ones. I am just using the PE belts on the resin seats, as the resin seats were lacking shoulder harnesses. So over all I am really starting to feel good about the bloody thing. I think it is going to turn out nice. My wife got me a set of the Tamiya pin washes. Which color do you guys think would look best on the belly, black or brown, I am leaning toward brown, as I don't think it would be so stark against the white.

Kerry COX
Brown, as they threw a lot of graphite dust at moving parts on them and it mixed with the hydraulic oils that were mostly hot and it stained the belly brown. 🙂

Derek Jordan
I use an ivory black oil wash, which can be easily more brown than black depending on the surface it is applied to.

Kerry COX
Good idea Derek. I have seen a book on the Phantom, "Under the Skin" and from the preview images, looks stunning.
It might be a worth while venture to ask Google images for F-4C Belly shots, and see what it comes up with. 🙂

Derek Jordan
[img1]?dl=0

I've used this image for reference.

Kerry COX
Good one. 🙂 👍

Clifford Keesler
Nice one Derek.

Clifford Keesler
Awesome Derek.

Kerry COX
Just like all the photos I have seen of the Spook, and it's not all that easy to mask up for the SEA camo.
I am impressed Cliff, well done mate. 🙂

Derek Jordan
Thanks guys. I was away on business for a week, so I came back rejuvenated and tore into the painting. Right now I am letting the clear dry on the top, I will flip it over and hit the bottom before I go to bed. Then its time for my favorite part

Derek Jordan
and, no...SEA camo is not easy or fun to mask.

Clifford Keesler
It still looks great. My decaling is done,just need to apply final clear coats and weathering. I have been out most of last week and probally all of this week, then should be able to finish mine.

Donald Dickson II
I may be a masochist, but I love doing the SEA camo.

Kerry COX
Donald, you would enjoy doing the Australian F-111 by Hobby boss then.
🙂 👍

Clifford Keesler
You have to love it, especially when most of your favorite aircraft wear that color scheme. I have a whole hoard of NMF F-100s, my next one will wear camo. I have no F-4s in SEA camo, they are either ADC grey/white Gull Gray/White or the Hill Gray scheme, so my next 2 F-4s will be in SEA camo. "Boots" Blesse's bird and Col. Steve Ritchie's, I hope they turn out half as nice as Derek's LOL.

Donald Dickson II
My favorite all time jet is the F-4. Right behind it is the 86, which never did wear SEA camo. Might do one in it though just for grins. Then all the century series I adore, plus the 111. The Sandies too. Pretty much every darn Viet Nam plane there is. LOL And as I am former Air Force, I will do them all in AF colors before anything else. So yeah, I have done a LOT in SEA and will do even more. 🙂

Choppa Nutta
Got to admits this is definitely one of favourite Phantoms too !

Great detailing and paintwork Derek,
the final reveal is going to look awesome 🙂

Derek Jordan
Clifford, Kerry, or anyone else building the 1/48 Academy kit, I need some help. The stabilators to my kit (parts H2 and H3 I believe) are ruined. It is like they are covered in some sort of silica that I can't remove, strip, clean, sand or paint away. I have a set of the slatted stabilators that would go on the F-4B (the Eduard instructions actually insist that I use the slatted version, but that is incorrect). Do any of you gentlemen have the parts I need and would be willing to part with them for a small fee? Clifford, I bet we have the same sprue that came with both sets of stabiliators. Do you still have the ones for the C model?

Derek Jordan
Choppa, thanks!

Clifford Keesler
Sorry Derek, I used the ones from my kit on the Monogram J kit.

Clifford Keesler
I have a set of Monogram ones that have the reinforcement plates on them.

Kerry COX
Guys, I have just sent Derek the spare ones I have so just wait to see if they are the ones he needs before you pack anything up. 🙂 👍

Kerry COX
Guys, I have just sent Derek the spare ones I have so just wait to see if they are the ones he needs before you pack anything up. 🙂 👍

Derek Jordan
Kerry, thanks again for that.

Kerry COX
Oh, yeah mate, no worries. 👍 🙂
But it's amazing how many spare ones are out there just wanting attention. LOL 🙂

Derek Jordan
Well, it fell off my desk. Parts flew everywhere. The beautiful little angle of attack sensor and pitot tubes are bent. The centerline MER shattered. An aileron came off. Some of the PE around the cockpit bent. I'm heartbroken. I couldn't even stomach looking at it. So, I carefully boxed everything up, and shelved it. I'm going to take a break from it. Maybe I'll build something smaller, and easy, to take my mind off of that for awhile. That's like 6 weeks down the tube.

Kerry COX
SHIT, bugger, bastard, F*%K. !!! Oh Mate !, that breaks my heart to hear that. 🙁 🙁 🙁.
If there is ANYTHING I can do in the way of parts, please, you know my email, just let me know. OK. ???

Thomas Bischoff
top work!

Thomas Bischoff
pity that it fell down the desk

Derek Jordan
Kerry, that is a kind offer for parts. After sleeping on it and assessing the damage under the light of a new day, I think that I can salvage it. It will need a little touch up here and there, but nothing crazy. The only thing that is irreparable is the centerline MER and the 6 mk 82 bombs that were attached to it. I guess that is good, in a way, as I noticed that there was some slight misalignment of the bombs on the rack. It sucks because making those bombs was a considerable effort. I'm just going to work on the landing gear, get the bottom finished, then turn it over and repair the top.

Clifford Keesler
Sorry to hear about that Derek, I have made absoutley no progress in mine at all.

Christian Ristits
This are no good news, sorry to hear that!

Donald Dickson II
Oh man! That sucks rather large donkey members! Hopefully you can indeed rescue her.

Bryce Nicely
Damn, man, that sucks. You've put so much into it already though, I think you can salvage it. Just consider it battle damage.

Choppa Nutta
Nothing worse than hanger rash, I can empathize whole heartedly Derek with such an accident.

Recovery from such accidents really is test of one skills and temperament
Glad to hear you got a "plan B" on the go 🙂

Derek Jordan
I've decided I'm not going to post more pics until it's finished.

I'm probably a week or more out.

Thanks for the support everyone, seriously. Stay tuned for final pictures.

Clifford Keesler
Will do Derek.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, I can't wait to see how yours is coming along.

Olivier
Looking forward to it. Inspiring build 👍

Gareth Windsor
Wow

Clifford Keesler
Yours looks great sir. I actually got an hours work in on mine this morning. First time since surgery, have been able to set at the workbench that long.

Derek Jordan
nice. That means you are coming along.

Clifford Keesler
Slowly, yes but coming along.

Clifford Keesler
Got some more work done today, I actually think I may be able to start some weathering tomorrow. LOL.

Derek Jordan
Bragger. Lol

Jose Miguel Rodriguez
Excellent!!!!

Clifford Keesler
LOL. Thanks Derek, this one has really been a struggle for me. I hope in the end it is all worth it.

Kerry COX
When things turn out well here in Oz, we have a saying, "Looking the ducks nuts mate", or in other words, that's as good as you could ever want it to look. !! 🙂 👍
Great work Derek. 👍 👍 👍

Donald Dickson II
Hoping to see the finished thing soon! You have done a great job until now...and not speaking of the unfortunate gravitational incident.

Kerry, I am not sure I want to know how you Aussies know that ducks nuts are an example of something looking as good as you could want it to. LOL

Kerry COX
It's an abbreviation of DUX, which is "The best". 🙂 👍

Derek Jordan
All, thanks for the support. I know I said I wasn't going to post more pictures but to assuage any concern, I have attached a picture of the model as it sits currently. I was above to fix most of the damage (I had to scrap the centerline MER and bombs, but that's okay). I am working on the drop tanks and pylons, trying to figure out what exact configuration of ordinance I want to install.

Kerry COX
You sound determined to have it right Derek, and that is good to know. 👍
All will be fine mate. 🙂

Choppa Nutta
Yeah I gotta say I'm also liking your determination to see it through and overcome the hanger rash incident,
this model is definitely worth saving though 🙂

Clifford Keesler
I think she's looking great Derek, despite her unfournate accident. I need to post some new pictures of mine, as it has been awhile. She has legs. LOL. I to am finishing up ordiance, getting ready to start hanging pylons and tanks. I discovered today that I forgot to drill out the holes for the belly tank.

Kerry COX
The seats are everything I was telling you Derek. And you have done a "Bang up job" lol 🙂 👍

Clifford Keesler
Awesome bird Derek. Mine is done except for finishing up the seats,and installing the canopies, and some final weathering. I have to say, that with all the problems I had with the kit I like the way it turned out.

Derek Jordan
There is so much about the Academy kit that I really like. There are a few things about the Hasegawa kit that are superior. If the best part of the two could be put together, it would be the perfect model. If I had to choose, having built one Hasegawa and one Academy, I'd pick the Academy every time.

Clifford Keesler
I put the nice little PE compass on my windshield, then 2 hours later somehow knocked it off the workbench, and in the panic of trying to find it knelt down on it, with a sicking crunch, split it in half right down the middle. I was able to repair it with Micro crystal clear,and it looks like it will be ok. But I cannot find the damn compass anywhere.

Derek Jordan
Wow, these kits are cursed. They seem to like to fall of things and get damaged.

Derek Jordan
Well, getting close to the end. Have to paint and mount the stabs that Mr. Cox was kind enough to send, redo about 6 mk. 82s, 4 m 117s, and we should be done.

Kerry COX
It all sounds too easy Derek. 🙂 👍 🙂

Derek Jordan
As long as she doesn't try to jump into the floor again, it should be relatively easy. Big if, though.

Donald Dickson II
Air bags on the floor around the bench. Only reasonable solution.

Derek Jordan
Ha. Or maybe just work on the floor?

Choppa Nutta
nah, you'd probably tread on it instead😉

what you want is to paint your bench like the
deck of an aircraft carrier and have safety nets
(like they do on carrier decks)
jutting out either side of you whilst you work 😄

Donald Dickson II
Oooo, I like that idea Choppa. Hmmmmm....

Donald Dickson II
Derek, absolutely superb! You may have mentioned, and I dont see it, but the yellow lines on the canopies. Decals I presume?

Derek Jordan
Donald, those are decals. 🙂

Choppa Nutta
yeah sorry Derek I forgot to say looking good !
very tidy work indeed 🙂

Derek Jordan
Does anyone have a USAF style boarding ladder for the F-4 they'd be willing to part with? I'm talking about the external kind, not the internal one that comes in the Academy kit.

Kerry COX
Like this. ? google.com.au/url?sa..ust=1456812532262506

Derek Jordan
[img1]

Like that.

Norman Dennison
Beautiful build 🙂

Kerry COX
How are your scratch building skills Derek. ? 🙂

Donald Dickson II
Those are fairly generic. Let me check my kits and see if any have one. I usually dont use them

Derek Jordan
Kerry, my scratch building skills are about as honed as my powers of invisibility and flight. lol

Derek Jordan
Donald, I've read somewhere that the Hasegawa kits come with the correct ladder(s). I'd be happy to buy one off of anyone that has it, and see if it works.

Derek Jordan
Choppa, and all, thanks for the support. This one has seen the highest highs and the lowest lows.
I'm kindof sad to see it reaching the end. But, its time for my model area to be deep cleaned (I do that after every build) so I'm ready to get it finished.

Kerry COX
Now is the perfect opportunity to see you test flight "Wonder Woman's" jet. LOL 🙂
Derek, If I didn't need the ones I have for my Aussie F-4E's, I would have it off to you in a flash, BUT, if you could wait and see what my skills are like, I will attempt to punch one out. 🙂
Just for the hell of it. 👍
Yeah. ??

Clifford Keesler
@Derek, I am glad yours is nearing an end. Mine is finished except for the F.O.D. covers. Mine like yours has seen the highs and the very lows. But I must say that like you, I feel it was worth it. I will get final pictures up soon. I don't think I will be building ant Academy kits for awhile. LOL.@Kerry Cox, you making F-4 boarding ladders now? LOL.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, I've only built two academy kits. This, and the P-38F. The latter came with lots of warnings about alignment issues, but I found it to be a rather enjoyable build if one simply takes time to align things. This F-4, as I have mentioned ad naseum, is far superior to the Hasegawa RF-4C in both fit and detail (to me). Yes, there are some issues and it falls short of being perfect, but for my money it's all around better. I think that the perception problem is that the Hasegawa kits have been around longer, and people are simply used to the issues that they have and it is a very solid kit. That said, I'm probably done with F-4s for awhile, if ever (though I do want to build a B at some point). Im debating on whether my next build will be the Eduard (Hasegawa) F-86 in NMF, the Revall F-15E, or the Airfix British Electric Lightning. Any thoughts?

Kerry COX
Derek, the Airfix British Electric Lightning is a superb kit, with no more issues than any other kit available.
The PE suites for it are wonderful.
I actually drilled out the gun barrel ports, giving it a touch more 'depth', but a most enjoyable kit, and take a bit of a tip, They have the aerodynamics of a house brick if short flights are attempted, particularly between the bench and the floor. (hehehehehe) 🙂 👍

Kerry COX
Derek, If you want to have a break from aircraft mate, I see this is just out from Dragon, still yet to be released, and this site is where I get all my models from.
hlj.us1.list-manage...e02&e=52c3529bcc

Derek Jordan
Cool, but I'm an aircraft guy. I do have a Meng M3a3 Bradley to build for a friend who was a Cav. Scout Platoon leader. I've never built armor, and when I decide to, that will be the first.

Derek Jordan
Kerry, I also have an unopened Meng M2A3 with full interior that needs a home if you know someone who might be interested.

Clifford Keesler
I agree with Kerry, the Lighting. I have that kit also, with the Airies resin cockpit. My next project will be a New Jersey ANG F-106A. (Last of the Red hot interceptors. I think that having major surgery in the middle of my build did not help me any.You want to build the "B", I want to build the "C" or "D" eventually. I agree the academey F-4s are supieor to the Hasegawa ones now. Maybe the next one won't be so bad knowing now what to expect.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, do you have any of the Hasegawa gun nose F-4s? Apparently those kits come with a crew access ladder that I'd really like to have.

Kerry COX
F-4E

Donald Dickson II
Well, I have two of the Monogram F-4 kits in my stash. Not the same level of detail, but they are nice kits. I AM going to get one of the Da Nang kits. I could build 4s all day long. 😄

I have the Airfix Lightning in 1/72 sitting here. It looks to be an awesome kit. I am sure the 1/48 is no less awesome. Having said that though, I would say do the 15E. That kit is the best 15E out there. It went together great with virtually no issues. Revell F-15E | Album by smokeriderdon (1:48) Thats the one I did. I have no idea about the Hasegawa 86. I have done the Revell and I have the Academy waiting in the wings. But hey, its an 86! Gotta love building those.

Clifford Keesler
I think I may have a boarding ladder around somewhere, I will look and see. I built a Fujuimi F-4E and I think it came with a boarding ladder, I did not use. The carpet monster ate the boarding ladder for my F-4B this morning, and I can't find it anywhere. I probally spent an hour or longer on my hands and knees looing for it. The Navy F-4s had built in boarding ladders. The F-4C you built doesn't have one on the parts trees does it.It is part # F-43.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, Yeah it comes with the internal ladder. I'm looking for the external ladder like a picture I shared above.

Derek Jordan
Donald, I really am torn between the F-15 and BAC Lightning. I'm kind of leaning towards the E just because it would be a good break from labor intensive finishes (ie NMF, SEA camo).

Clifford Keesler
yea I think I have the external ladder, are you looking for one. I was wondering if yours came with the internal ladder as I lost mine to the carpet monster. I decided to tackle a F-106A, I started on it today. I have the F-15E with the aftermarket goodies, PE cockpit , resin seats etc, I built one before but my son conned me out of it. LOL.

Derek Jordan
I have the internal ladder if you need. I would like your external ladder if you are willing to let it go. I think I am just going to dive into the F-15E. I'll go ahead and get the aftermarket goodies ordered.

Clifford Keesler
Yes I would very much appericate the internal ladder, and yes I will part with the external ladder, it is assembled and painted, if that is not a problem. Just E-mail me your address and I will box it up and send it. my e-mail is skippykeesler@yahoo.com.

Derek Jordan
Cliff, I don't want to take something you're using. I hoped you had a spare laying around. I'll email shortly, and will gladly send the ladder.

Clifford Keesler
I don't mind taking it off the F-4E, I had planned on building a dio, but never got around to it. I used the other GSE on a F-14 dio that I built for my son for Christmas. So the "E" is just sitting on a shelf.

Clifford Keesler
Derek, I would be happy if you put my F-4 up on the reddit groupbuild roundup. Thank you.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, I cannot accept your generous offer of the ladder being that it is already in use. Please don't take it off anything and send it to me. I was only looking for parts that were sitting in someone's spares box, or similar. Speaking of, I will have your internal ladder sent out shortly (I'm glad you saved it from the trash). 🙂

Donald Dickson II
Yes, the finish on it is much easier than dealing with camo or NMF. I primed mine in black and varied the top coats so it didnt look too solid. I took it relatively easy on weathering as these are usually very clean ladies.

I am still rummaging through kits on a ladder quest. LOL

Clifford Keesler
AS you wish sir. If I happen to stumble across another one, in the spares box I will let you know. I will go through them tomorrow, as I have more than one "spares" box.LOL.

Derek Jordan
No worries gents, and I really appreciate the effort of looking for the ladder. I decided to call this one finished and delivered it to my dad. It's sealed up in his display case. I wash my hands of this and move on. 🙂

Clifford Keesler
To the Eagle? I spent the day painting the wheel wells and weapons bay on my F-106. I did something I have never done before, I primed the gear wells and doors and missle bay flat black then when that was dry, I sprayed the interior green over it. I love the way it turned out, The black undercoat gives some very nice shadowing in those bays, without being over whelming.

Derek Jordan
Yeah, I think I'm doing the eagle. I'm ready for a nice easy paint scheme. Ha.

Clifford Keesler
I bet it will turn out nice. My Lighting is going to be a pain to paint, it is the 2 tone gray,with crimson trim on the tail spine and wing and stab leading edges. But I sure like the scheme. I think after the 106 my next project will be an F-16, I don't even have one. Go figure. LOL.

Clifford Keesler
That is one beautiful Rhino,well done.

Donald Dickson II
Ladder or no ladder, your dad should be proud to have that on display. 🙂

Derek Jordan
Donald, Clifford, thanks! I think it looks great in his display case. I might take it to a show on the 16th of April. We will see.

Choppa Nutta
I bet your dad is pleased you didn't bin this beauty and that you pushed through to completion !
Good work Derek 🙂

Derek Jordan
Choppa, I'm glad I didn't do what I wanted to do last Saturday which was just throw it in the trash and pretend that about 6-7 weeks hadn't happened. lol

Choppa Nutta
the first rule of "Model Club" is that we don't discuss the "Bin" !! 😄

Derek Jordan
Is that the second rule, too?

Choppa Nutta
haha, and the third 😄

Clifford Keesler
And fourth and so on. I shall never surrender. LOL.

Choppa Nutta
"I'm Spartacus ! ........... & so is my wife !" 😄

That's the spirit Cliff 🙂

( gotta love a mixed movie reference 😄 )

Kerry COX
What a great result and display case Cliff. 🙂 👍.
All looks good mate. 👍

Clifford Keesler
I got the ladder Derek, thank you very much. Now I can put the final finishing touches on this bird.

Derek Jordan
You are most welcome Clifford. Glad I could help.

Clifford Keesler
I re-scribed my first ever kit, the Revell F-106A, We will see how well I did when I get ready to paint. Did not have a lot of choice in the matter, she was a putty queen. I sanded off so many raised panel lines I just decided to re-scribe the bloody thing LOL.

Kerry COX
It will look much better with 'recessed' lines mate. It will be a massive improvement on the raised ones for sure. 🙂

Derek Jordan
Clifford, I look forward to seeing it.

I just found this YouTube channel. Amazing stuff.
Youtube Video

Choppa Nutta
cool YouTube channel. 👍

Derek Jordan
Choppa, that channel is amazing. That guy is an expert.

Choppa Nutta
He's not an expert, he's a master !! 😄
his scratch builds are great !!
I've subscribed to that you channel so thanks for sharing
I want his dental vac former😉 😄

Aaron Ma
Amazing kit and amzing performance bty I think I saw u friend. 🙂

Clifford Keesler
Amazing channel.

Derek Jordan
Aaron, you think you saw me?

Aaron Ma
Huh what do u mean?

Derek Jordan
Your last statement ended with "bty I think I saw u friend."

I didn't know what that meant, but I read it as "btw, I think I saw you, friend." I was curious as what you meant, because I think I misunderstood something. Lol

Aaron Ma
Ok nvm is good to know you Derek I was live in London now.

Donald Dickson II
OK, so I ordered this kit and the Big Sin resin weapons set for the F-4. Can't wait to get it. 🙂

Derek Jordan
That's awesome Donald. Keep us posted! By the way, be forewarned the sparrows will need some trimming to fit in the sparrow bays, and my sidewinders were badly warped. The good news is that the C couldn't hang sidewinders AND mk 82s, so I just went with the latter.

Kerry COX
How come the 'C' couldn't hang the Sidewinders mate. ?

Donald Dickson II
Derek, I am hoping that yours were an exception. I will likely hold the winders for my Monogram kits if they are not jacked up.

Donald Dickson II
Kerry, from what I am reading, the C simply didnt have pylons designed for both. Everything I am reading says it could carry winders OR unguided missile pods OR bombs OR etc etc. It could also carry a nuke, which I did not know until just now.

Derek Jordan
Kerry, I think Donald is correct. My reading says that for whatever reason, the Air Force didn't insist on the mechanism that would allow the inner pylons to utilize both the sidewinder rails, and a TER. Don't quote me on the following, but it might not have been until the E model that this was commonplace on Air Force Phantoms. The Navy, however, had that ability on the B. The rail plus TER load-out, like the slatted stabs in the Academy kit, is incorrect.

Kerry COX
Derek, That is a world of info I am in need of mate, thank you for that, as I can now go ahead with the pylon positioning I wanted. 🙂
Cheers. 👍

Derek Jordan
I also think the chaff/flare dispensers are incorrect on Academy's C Phantom. I'm under the impression the C didn't have them on the pylons.

Rex
The comment about the chaff dispensers is correct, they didn't have them on the C model. But, there are plenty of photos of USAF pylons with missiles and bombs on a TER, or missiles and an ECM pod on the USAF pylons on F-4C. Of course, even the early USN style pylons couldn't carry both at first, but, the "bootleg bolt spacers" that were developed for the USN style pylons by either the Navy crews, the USMC crews, the USAF crews or McAir were soon fleetwide in all three services, and used on both pylon types. (all four claim them as their invention, so , it depends on which service the author served in, lol)

Remember that early in the F-4C's career, the "USN style" and "USAF style" pylons were swapped out depending on what the mission was,,,,,,what modelers call the "USN Style" was NOT that at all, it was the "LAU-17 Missile pylon", designed to carry the Sparrow on the integral missile launch rail on the bottom. That is why the "USN style" needed a weapons adapter to bolt the TER to,,,,,,,,and the opposite is true of the MAU-12 bomb pylon (the "USAF" rounded top one), it was designed to carry bombs, and had to have an adapter rail bolted on to carry missiles on the bottom. But both, with the longer bolts and spacers, could carry Sidewinders and bombs on TERs. (the USAF and USN Sidewinder rails had a different "droop angle", also)

With the original "short spacers", none of the inner pylons could carry both bombs and missiles,,,,,but, it didn't take long for the Long Bolt Missile Rail Spacers to get invented. (no matter which of the 4 entities claims the inventing)

Source, Detail & Scale F-4C/D USAF book,,,,,,,and USAF F-4 TO 1-1-4

Rex
Oh, I forgot, for the Phantoms that carried a centerline Nuke, they did not use a pylon for that, the Bomb rack built into the centerline position carried the Nuke right up snug to the belly of the aircraft. Nukes, drop tanks and MER adapters bolted right up to it, with what many call a Belly Tank Pylon not being a pylon at all, just a set of fairings that went over the rack, down to the belly tank. There was no actual centerline pylon on Phantoms.

Rex
As far as pylons go, accuracy calls for getting the outer pylons canted correctly, moreso than what you do with the inner ones. The "USN style" "fuel tank pylon with weapons adapter" mounted at 90 degrees, with the cant at the line above the MER, where it meets the weapons adapter on the pylon. The "USAF style" was canted out where it met the wing, with the pylon to MER joint straight, and the later "integral tank and pylon" (Sgt Fletcher tanks) were mounted at 90 degrees.

Donald Dickson II
Ummm, whoa! LOL OK, clearly I did not read the right stuff. Nothing I came across had that info. Granted, my search was far from all inclusive. Thank you for that great info Rex!

Derek Jordan
Rex, that's interesting information. I'd like to see the pictures of early C model Phantoms with both sidewinder rails and a TER. The only ones I can find are of museum Phantoms, but nothing that I can verify as pre 1970. I wish I could quickly find the exact references but it was very clear that C model Phantoms lacked some sort of mechanism to actually release both sidewinders and bombs from the inner pylons. And, that was something specifically addressed in later versions. So while it could be a true statement that F-4Cs could technically carry both a ter and sidewinder rails on the inner pylons, they could only release one or the other. Most of that is Internet research, so it should all be questioned.

Give me a bit, and I'll ask some guys I spoke with who actually worked on Hell's Angel and other 12th TFW birds back in about 1968-1970 in 'Nam. Maybe they know the answer.

Rex
In the Detail & Scale book, there is a photo of F-4C inner pylon with 2x Sidewinders over a TER with 3x 750# M117s. The photo caption states that the bombs have to be dropped before the Sidewinders could be fired *at that time in history*. I think many internet authors have taken those facts, and mashed them together with the "early 3 bomb dropping pylon" developed for the F-4C (no photo of those on the web, yet) and applied that somehow to "all F-4C". But, the real correct interpretation of that should be that both could be carried at once, you just have to be choosy about when you fire off the 'Winders.

the "3 bomb dropping pylon" (or "third" pylon type) had a big lump on the bottom of the pylon, with a rack for one bomb, then it had a big lump rack on each side of the pylon, about where the Sidewinder rails would have mounted, so, if it were installed, Sidewinders wouldn't even have had a place to be carried at all.

If someone mixes that info together,,,,,,they come out with the wrong conclusion.

When you talk to your buddies, ask them if they have ever used the LAU-17/A inner pylon on their F-4Cs, or used outer weapons pylons that could be swapped between weapons and fuel tanks. If they haven't, then they worked on F-4C Phantoms that were "too new" for them to have been exposed to these "USN type" of USAF weapons options. Or you could just look in a TO, it actually explains why the "USAF" inner pylon got that rounded shape on the top, that was for volume to carry the wire bundles and connectors for all of the weapon types the USAF had cleared for the Phantom on that station.

Rex
Derek, I just now went out for a "smoke and think",,,,,,and I realized that your decals are for a "mid to late war" F-4C,,,,,,it has tail codes. So, you might just ignore my notes, they mostly concern the three Phantom paint schemes before that, the Light Gull Gray over White, the Camo over White, and the Camo over Gray birds that didn't carry tail codes yet.

In any case, try to get USAF T.O. 1F-4C-34-1-1 (change 6 1 February 1969) and the previous versions (just don't swap out and destroy the pages superseded and you will have a complete set as of 1969)

Derek Jordan
Rex, Again that is very thoughtful and interesting information. I actually think we are agreeing more than disagreeing, but we're taking the long way around. First, it is consistent with everything I have read that the C could carry the sidewinder rails and a TER, but due to a mechanical issue (as you noted) you couldn't fire the winders without dropping the bombload first (actually what I've read said the whole TER had to be jettisoned). Second, the way I depicted Hell's Angel from Cam Ranh was in 1968. According to the guys I referenced (I wouldn't call them friends but acquaintances) that base was far enough out of the range of Mig air cover to rarely carry much in the way of air to air ordinance. The 12th TFW, as such, was relegated to ground pounding. So, the long way around is that for the subject that I was concerned with, acknowledging that while technically the F-4C could carry the winders and TER on the inner pylon, the issue with the firing sequence, and a lack of a need for air to air capability, made that an extremely unlikely load). The end result is that if you built a model showing an F-4c in that operating area in that time, and put the rails and the TER you would have an exceedingly unlikely, but technically possible, load ( (unlikely enough that if you built a model with that load, it could probably be considered historically inaccurate).

Actually, the load on my model falls into that latter category anyway. There was no need to have four sparrows with mk 82s from Cam Ranh. At most, it would carry 2. Typically, it would probably have none. I just liked the way the sparrows looked (and I spent a lot of time on them).

Derek Jordan
I also used this as a reference (I had found it elsewhere as well). Note that in most all air to ground configurations, there are no sidewinders on the inboard pylons.

cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-4/f-4c_loads.shtml

Rex
I just read my posts again, and realized that I might have "hidden insults" to Vet's memories in there. I want to be clear that this was NOT my intention at all. I am one myself (USMC Aviation).
But, remember that there are multiple versions of Vets. There are the "told to do it and how to do it and when to do it" versions, we all started at that level. Then, later, they become "tell people to do it, how to do it, and when" versions. And then with the accumulation of a lot more rank, they became "tell people to do it, how, when, and sometimes the why" version. And even then, you run into branch of service variations in the how and why,,,,,,,and even in the same branch you will have the "our unit did it this way" variations. As you can see, the Vets we have access to get smaller in number as you go up the experience ladder, because there are less and less people at each higher rank and education level in any particular MOS.

I once knew a high ranking enlisted Air Force Vet on a forum (since passed away, sadly) that insisted that there was never an IR sensor installed in the Phantoms Donky Dick,,,,,,,,simply because he only worked on USAF F-4C and RF-4C, meaning that even though he was a MSgt with a lot of Phantom time, he had never worked on an F-4B from before the RHAW gear replaced the IR in that lump.

I was blessed to have 2 USMC and 2 USAF uncles serve before me and my brother, so I had superseded TO's and FS sets before I was old enough to even get a driver's license.

Derek Jordan
Rex, there was nothing that I found insulting in your posts. The key to looking at these things is that there is a "technically" correct answer, and a "functionally" correct answer. Sometimes the two answer vary significantly, and often the latter is significantly different depending on a "where and when" evaluation. I'm certainly not questioning what you know, or did. As you mentioned, even having a significant time in service, things can be different between branches, bases, uses, etc.

I reached out to one of the guys that worked on Hell's Angel if he remembered what the capabilities were of the inner pylon. Here is his response:

"I can't say with certainty that they [the rails and TERS] couldn't be carried simultaneously. I think [those who say they can't be used simultaneously on the C] may be right though because of the differing uses of the wire harnesses. I would have been mainly concerned with the AIM9's because their control was an integral part of my systems. The "air-to-mud" at that time consisted of "picking a spot & slinging a rock". We didn't get a bomb computer until the E model. Also, where my birds were flying didn't have an airborne threat so they really didn't need the Sidewinders & Sparrows as part of their load out. We did keep 2 [Phantoms] on the Alert pad loaded out with 4 & 4, sometimes 6 & 4 but they seldom took off like that and were rotated out every so often."

I provided some clarity in brackets.

Rex
I must have been typing my post about the same time as you, they crossed over a bit. But now that I see your post, I have to agree with you on one huge point. Choosing to not put some weapon or other on a Phantom is very much NOT an error. In fact, it would boil down to merely choosing a config that was more guaranteed to be accurate. And even if a combo *could* be carried, it still has to meet the gross weight limit of the aircraft, anyway, which also cause stuff to get left off, especially if there are fuel tanks involved, and CG issues.

Remember, if you know me,,,,,,,,,,I like the more oddball stuff, like Nuke AGM-12Ds, Genies, MC-1 chemweps, MBRs instead of MERs,,,,,different Napes than the usual Mk 77 or BLU-27, etc, etc. I will wind up with quite enough "bombs on the outer MERs and 'Winders on the inner pylon"type of builds as it is, so variety and oddball is the way to go for me. (I have a cool pic of an F-4D with Pave Spike in the Sparrow well, Ters with Flat-Two 500# LGBs on the inner pylons, with Sidewinder rails above the TERs and outerwing fuel tanks. That thing just screams to be built, lol. I also just saw a photo of the two Falcon rails being mounted ala the Sidewinder rails on the pylons, instead of the usual "one up and one down" relationship we all are familiar with,,,,,in a USAF pub on what could be mounted on F-4s from 1963 (revised 1965)

good discussion

Gareth Windsor
You are all nerds........and none of that helped with my F-4K lol. All very interesting, love it.
More Phantom stuff here:-
aviationarchives.blogspot.ca/?m=1

Kerry COX
A great site Gareth, and my fascination with the F-4 just keeps growing. lol. 🙂 👍

Rex

Gareth, here's some F-4K/F-4M love for you, and there are other tabs on it for other Phantom Phreaks
phantomphacts.blogspot.com/search/label/RAF

Gareth Windsor
Great Rex, thank you. Oh and Derek, something odd for the middle station of a Phantom. [img1]

Donald Dickson II
OK, I should have just read this before I spent all that time searching and finding out exactly what you two already hashed out. LOL

Rex, absolutely NOTHING in your posts was anything other than flipping awesomely informative sir. Not one word to worry over.

So to boil it down, bombs and winders could be carried at the same time on the early Cs due to in field mods, but the bombs had to be dropped first then the winders could be fired.

And as with everything else (fire trucks included) what you ACTUALLY carried was never necessarily what you COULD carry.

Rex
cool photo of a Phoenix test ship, Gareth. And another common store is in the left Sparrow well. I have always "threatened" to build something F-4 with the EROS collision avoidance pod, I just never did it. Maybe that pic will get me "off the dime and do it"

Rex
I had forgotten, the "early 3 bomb dropping pylon" *is* on the web,,,,,,,I posted a photo of it about 2 years ago, trying to find out the designation. It is in a photo with an MBR on the outerwing. here is the thread on Zone Five zone-five.net/showthread.php?t=25616

and yes, to the unasked question, we have an Aircraft Ordnance forum on that site,,,,6 pages of info so far

Donald Dickson II
I got mine yesterday. I wasn't able to look at it until like 2 this morning. All I can say is WHOA! Worth every penny as far as I can see.
Derek, the winders in the Big Sin package are just fine on first look. Though the fins are fiddly little buggers. I really think you got a bad batch that slipped through.
And where sir did you get the yellow line decals for the canopy? Is that part of the sheet, or one of the extras you got?

Derek Jordan
The set I got was from Furball designs. I think I found them on Amazon. The sheet comes with two full sets. If you can't find any, I'd be happy to send you the left overs from mine.

Bryce Nicely
Furball has them in stock on their site, at least the last time I looked they did

Clifford Keesler
Sprue Brothers also has them.

Clifford Keesler
Derek, I have come to the conclusion that you are a bigger F-4 lover than I am. LOL.

Derek Jordan
Clifford, it is a beautiful bird.

Clifford Keesler
That it is.

Kerry COX
Ditto ditto. 🙂

Rex
"Beautiful"???
I will grant you "neat", "cool", interesting, etc,,,,,,,,,but, beautiful?
We use to say "Uncle Mac dropped the blueprints, they got trampled on, and then he followed them anyway"
I mean,,,,we have a problem with the flow over the wing,,,,,,,Okay, we'll just change the wingfold so it won't go all the way flat anymore. The stabilators aren't cutting the wind from the wing right,,,,,okay, we'll just bend them down. The new radar is too big for the nose,,,,okay, we'll mount it at a down angle and droop the nose a bit.

The J-65 side of the Mockup *was* a great looking aircraft,,,,,then they started problem solving and changed it.

Kerry COX
Meaning ?

Donald Dickson II
And all of those things are part of what make her a beautiful bird.

Stephan Ryll
It a beauty - stunning build Derek 👍

Rex
hmm, I might have read that as "the Phantom was beautiful", when the post probably meant "the MODEL was beautiful",,,,,no offense meant to the modeler at all, it is a great looking model

There is a very good reason that one of the book companies that has a series of Phantom books is named "Double Ugly",,,,it is because that was one of the nicknames of the Phantom in the services

Rex
nevermind, I guess it is not common knowledge, even the Double Ugly book series is called Air Doc on here instead of by their name

Donald Dickson II
I know all its nick names referring to its looks. I am one of those that looks at the plane and sees a thing of beauty. Perhaps not the same as a 15 or 18 or Tornado, beautiful none the less. And YES, the build is beautiful, I did indeed mean the plane.

Kerry COX
Beauty. ! After all, it is in the eye of the beholder, and for me, I think that the F-4 is a thing of beauty, beer or no beer, but anything ugly looks beautiful after a couple of them. 😉

Derek Jordan
Subjective, indeed. I think the A-6, 7 and 10 are things of beauty, but Im in the form follows function school of thought.

For my money, though, the most beautiful aircraft ever to take wing are the P-38, and Spitfire Mk. IX. The Mustang, while attractive, is too "girl next door" for my liking. And, the Mosquito (while generally regarded as a thing of beauty) is one of the most ill proportioned things I've ever seen.

The Phantom resonates a power and presence the way a heavy weight boxer does. There is an intimidating beauty in the chiseled, no frills, exterior. Sure, like a boxer with the mangled nose, the Phantom isnt a typical beauty, but it exudes a stately confidence. Its not intended to have the lines of a swimsuit model, or the elegance of a dancer. It was intended to engage in combat; to balance agility and durability, endurance with force. You can argue if it achieved those goals, but it gets my vote as one of the best looking "fuel to noise converters" ever designed.

Rex
One thing to keep in mind, the people that worked on and around them have their reasons for not thinking it is very good looking. Some people came from the F-8 community, others swore at things like the auxiliary air bleed doors, the pylon points, heck we used to joke that the gear doors were painted red to hide our blood.
The thing started out with fine lines, and close coupled pylons, those got taken away, and everything wound up being various bolt on parts,,,,,,,,,with almost 3 dozen pins with flags to be taken off before every flight,,,,so, you had to do the "Phantom duck walk" to pull them all out.

I've always thought the Skyray and cancelled Skylancer were much better looking,,,,,,but, those were gone by the time I got to the party.

But, I do agree that this is all in the eye of the beholder,,,,,,I am sure that some people like the Super Hornet's lines more than a Skyhawk's.

Gareth Windsor
I think you've upset the Spook lovers Rex. I think the Phantom is quite a sleek looking fighter bomber. Other gorgeous aircraft include the DC-3, F4U (awesome Gul wings) and the amazing Seafury.

Kerry COX
Anything with wings, especially our guardian Angels, are beautiful things. Thank Orville and Wilber. 🙂 👍

Donald Dickson II
I look at the planes from the 50s forward (the military jets) and I see it as sort of a beauty pageant. All of them are beautiful in their own way. It simply becomes a matter of which you find to be more attractive over the others.

Rex, the working design issues may indeed jade a person who has to deal with those issues day in and day out. I can think of a number of fire trucks I worked on that looked good, but I HATED the damn thing for its design issues.

Rex
I think we "get" each other now, Donald. It is sort of funny, but, I still love the Scooter, even though I got my fair share of Skyhawk bites, also, along the way. LOL, talk to an old Scooter Enlisted man, and he might have seen me,,,,,,I was the guy always adding the "Slat hold-up straps" to any Skyhawk that I had to walk or drive past more than once. It doesn't work to paint things Red, have them hang down, and then give a guy a clipboard that he doesn't have time to take his eyes off of while he walks around trying to get things done, lol.

Clifford Keesler
My favorite 2 aircraft of all time The UH-1 Huey and the CH-47, but I guess I am bias, as I flew both of these aircraft and cut my teeth on them. My 3 was the F-4 (double ugly, or smoke and thunder hog.) though I came to the F-4 late. I always loved the way she howled. My other favorite was the F-106, the only aircraft that left her permant mark on me, when I impaled my left arm on a piotiot tube that had the heat on. walked right into the darn thing and it burnt right through my flight jacket sleeve right into my arm, I still have the scar to this day.

Derek Jordan
Great but terrible story Clifford.

Rex
It's amazing that an aircraft only slips down the favorites lists, instead of being hated. I have a "Phantom bite" that has a scar 6" long on my abdomen, caused by an aircraft incident. I guess the reason that I don't hate the bird is that it was actually caused by a couple of "how in the world did they ever get a stripe at all?" guys on the maintenance line. (note, if you see an aircraft falling off of unpinned jacks,,,,,don't hang on to it, just let it go, you won't even slow it down)

Clifford Keesler
We had a couple 106's slide off of the jacks. It was a mad scramble to get out from under the damn thing. Always hated having to swing the gear or rig the emergency gear extension system on one. I always seemed to get stuck on the nose gear jack which was the one that usuallt had the most tendency to slide off. I have a scar on the back of my head from a huey tail rotor. Me and another guy were tying one down,and I was not paying attention to where I was standing and he went to bring the main rotor around, and he was in a bit of a hurry, and the tail rotor clocked me right in the back of my head, left a nice little gash. The scariest thing I ever had happen was I was tracking the main rotor on a Huey, we used a pole with a flag on it that ran down the pole from 2 projections. You would mark the tracking tabs with red and black grease pencil. Then you would run the aircraft up and rotate this flag into the rotor arch, to touch the tracking tabs, thus telling you rather the blades were in track or one was high or low. Anyhow , I got the flag in to far and the rotor grabbed it and threw it half way across the flight line. Luckly it did not hit me or anyone else.

Rex
ahhh, such "fond memories" we have, ehh?
And through it all, we still love airplanes enough to sit and build models of them.
We must have been thoroughly hooked on them, eh?

Donald Dickson II
Rex, I have run across a number of those guys.

I was a load master on C-141s so I absolutely adore them. I was actually a little depressed when they retired them and cut a bunch of them.in half.

Clifford Keesler
Yes, I still love the darn things. I stand and gawk like a kid every time I see one, especially a CH-47. My son flies Black Hawks, out of Fort Leonard Wood Mo. So every time I go up to visit him, I drool all over the birds. I usually get to go flying for a little while. LOL. And yes I spend the majority of my free time building models of them.

Clifford Keesler
One aircraft I could never seem to come to have any affection for was the F/A-18A's, we converted from the F-4S to the F/A-18 and I just never could get into it. I have no idea why. They weren't a bad aircraft.

Donald Dickson II
My father was an USAF flight mech on Hueys, CH-3s and 53s. He said he flew on a couple CH-47s and he didnt know how the damn things stayed in the air. He said he was glad he didnt have to work on them. LOL And he was one of the best the AF had.

Clifford Keesler
I loved them, but we had a saying, our favorite tool was a BFH. Big fing hammer. My dad was also career AF, but he worked on F-86s F-100s F-104s F-105s and F-106s.

Spanjaard
thanks for the detail pictures, helped a lot!! excellent build by the way 🙂

Stephan Ryll
Very nice Phantom Derek 👍

Eugen P.
Rhino rocks 👍