Tanks with camouflaged wheels

Holger Kranich
The answer to my question!😢
A lot of vehicles had comouflaged wheels even when the OKH didnt allowed that. And now i know thats the same with Paks and FlaKs etc...😢

H K
Well, it was also strictly forbidden to put concrete on Stugs ( except around the Commander's cupola before the deflector was added) ...
We all know how that went 🙂

John Van Kooten
LOL! @ HK 😉

@Holger: I always like to provide samples just so people know I'm not just making things up, which unfortunately happens a LOT on public forums 🙁 and it's often how completely wrong information gets propagated... If I say something I want to be 100% sure that what I say is correct 👍 🙂

I have been collecting original WWII equipment for over 2 decades and I have seen a LOT of things that weren't suppose to exist 😉 So I have learned to do some thorough detective work before I open my mouth 😛 lol

H K
Slightly off topic and you probably know it, but in case- great picture source : flickr.com/photos/deckarudo/

John Van Kooten
That is indeed a great resource. I did already have it in my favourites but for anyone else, perfect! Thanks HK! 👍

Here's another one that's quite valuable and shouldn't be missing from your resource collection (it's a collection of WWII pictures covering all branches of mostly German WWII troops): facebook.com/WWIIphotos?fref=photo

Hunter Cummins
Bookmarked!! Anyway, question, I am by far not a panzer expert but do know alot about them. My question is does the steel wheeled panther have the sprocket, odler wheel and tracks of a KT?? The steel wheeled panther in the album looks to have those characteristics which look alot like the KT tracks idler wheel and sprocket

John Van Kooten
The Panther G has the exact same drive-train as the Panther Ausf. A.

The tracks are specific for Panthers. Single link, single pin types as on the other Panther types, i.e., one track link linked to the next track link with a single pin.

King Tigers have double link, double pin tracks, i.e., each track segment consists of two track parts linked with one pin in the center plus one pin to link it to the next segment.

Since the drive-train and final drive of the Panther G are the same as those of the Panther A, the sprockets and idler wheel cannot be the same as those found on a King tiger. The widths and diameters are very different.

The similarity ends with them being similar in appearance at quick glance 😉

As a side note: the running gear of the Panther II was in fact very similar to that of the Tiger B. But still not exactly the same😉

Mike Kryza
Hi John - really nice pics 👍 But pic No. 2 irritates my a little bit. The caption said the pic is done in the year 1976 after restoring the tank. In this case I'm not sure of the correctness of the camo. But on the other side this is a very good example.
And Thx for the links... 🙂

John Van Kooten
You are right, Mike, about the Sturmtiger. It was restored. I'll leave it in (to demonstrate the point of camouflaged wheels) but have made a note in the comments of the image that it probably was repainted and we cannot be sure this was the original scheme. Thanks for clearing that up! 👍

I have added some additional info to the album text!

Choppa Nutta
someone might have said this already but, they might be camouflaged but they still look like wheels .... 😄

H K
For me they look like whells 😄

John Van Kooten
Nooooooo, they don't! They totally look like plants and trees! 😠

LOL!

By the way, do you know why camouflage schemes are used? I mean, really? And no, it's primary objective is not to completely hide the vehicle from sight! 😉

Hunter Cummins
To make it look cool??

Hunter Cummins
Lol

Hunter Cummins
Mike,
There is nothing in the pic that says 1976 as far as I can see. All I see is a website in the middle

Choppa Nutta
break up the visual lines so the target is harder to assess and thus harder to hit ?

H K
To impress the ladies? 😄

Fabian D.
to plauge us modellers with endless discussions about the "right" colors? 😄

Choppa Nutta
to impress the ladies ! lol, I thought that was what the big gun was for 😄

Hunter Cummins
I think it is what choppa said. But if you put it in the right place it would be totally hidden (or atleast hidden until its to late lol) or until you walk up on it by accident

Choppa Nutta
also from the air it would be difficult to see (and less impressive to the ladies)

Fabian D.
but ladies in the air are out of reach anyway...😉

Mike Kryza
Hi Hunter, this is right, but you can visit the site. Under Panther you can find the photo. Click on the pic and then you can read the text.

Hunter Cummins
Ahhhhh I see mike thank you my good sir

Mike Kryza
😢

Hunter Cummins
🙂

John Van Kooten
Choppa, you've got it right! 👍

There's actually a bit of science to it and it was heavily investigated for camouflage on ships (starting centuries ago!). Sharp lined, hard edge, very contrasting patterns, f.i., make it harder to estimate distance and movement. And some specific patterns made it look like the ship was moving, while it wasn't. Or moving faster than it actually did. It's pretty ingenious!

The same works on tanks as well. Especially on longer distances, where the eye interpolates data, i.e., adds information to make the picture "complete". At long distances the eye is incapable of seeing small detail and the mind corrects that deficiency by adding what it "thinks" should be there. The patterns described above make it nigh on impossible for the human eye to focus and gestimate distance and, to a certain extend, movement.

Another main objective was to hide identity, i.e., to make it hard to identify the type of vehicle and if it was friend or foe. This was especially true for ships, where Great Britain used Dazzle patterns to hide identity of their capital ships, i.e., to try to trick the enemy (submarines mostly) into thinking it wasn't the ship they were hunting for.

Camouflage patterns for defense against air attack are actually a bad thing! The USA did a lot of tests in WWII with their ships in the Pacific Theater and they concluded that single color camouflaged ships (in dark blue) were attacked far less frequent compared to two-tone camouflaged ships. The camouflage pattern actually breaks up the surface and makes the object more visible.

Choppa Nutta
true Fabian lol 🙂

Hunter Cummins
John, that was very interesting. I think thats quite interesting

Choppa Nutta
Hunter, do you think that might be worth saying again ? 😄
I think thats quite interesting too 😄

illusions of the eyes and mind are fascinating, though camo on planes can hide them rather well in certain situations especially when lower than the observer, and obviously at distance, and for a lot of the reasons above, the brain can't assess what it is looking at, shape recognition just goes to pot.

interestingly though yellow and black are the most visible colours on a moving object against pretty well any background.....

Hunter Cummins
Choppa, yes lol